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 | Join the class-action suit against HP by moe  (2/22/05 6:00 PM) | + / - |
Technology - Reuters
Reuters
Lawsuit Says HP Printer Cartridges Die Before Use
Tue Feb 22, 3:19 PM ET
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A Georgia woman has sued Hewlett-Packard Co. (NYSE:HPQ - news), claiming the ink cartridges for their printers are secretly programed to expire on a certain date, in some cases rendering them useless before they are even installed in a printer.
The suit filed in Santa Clara Superior Court in northern California last Thursday seeks to represent anyone in the United States who purchased an HP inkjet printer since Feb. 2001. HP is the world's No. 1 computer printer maker.
An HP spokesman said the company does not comment on pending litigation.
HP ink cartridges use a chip technology to sense when they are low on ink and advise the user to make a change. But the suit claims those chips also shut down the cartridges at a predetermined date regardless of whether they are empty.
"The smart chip is dually engineered to prematurely register ink depletion and to render a cartridge unusable through the use of a built-in expiration date that is not revealed to the consumer," the suit said.
The suit, which seeks class-action status, asks for restitution, damages and other compensation.
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 | More info on the suit by moe (2/22/05 6:15 PM) | + / - | Posted on Sat, Feb. 19, 2005
HP sued over printer technology
SUIT: INDICATOR THAT INK IS OUT DECEIVES USERS
By Therese Poletti
Mercury News
A Georgia woman has filed a class-action lawsuit against Hewlett Packard, alleging the Palo Alto company's smart-chip printer technology deceives consumers into buying new inkjet cartridges before the ink has run out.
The suit was filed Thursday in Santa Clara County Superior Court by Deborah Tyler of Norcross, Ga.
``The smart chip is dually engineered to prematurely register ink depletion and to render a cartridge unusable through the use of a built-in expiration date that is not revealed to the consumer,'' the suit alleges.
HP spokesman Bob Sherbin said Friday that the company does comment on pending litigation.
Tyler's attorney, Bruce Simon of Cotchett, Pitre, Simon & McCarthy in Burlingame, could not be reached for comment.
The suit was filed on behalf of HP customers who bought HP inkjet printers from February 2001 to the present that contain a smart chip or other technology that prematurely registers that the cartridge is empty or expired.
HP's printing and imaging division is its most profitable business. The Palo Alto company derives a steady stream of profits from its supplies business, which includes ink and paper. On Wednesday, HP reported the printer division earned $6.1 billion in revenue and had an operating profit of $932 million in the first fiscal quarter that ended Jan. 31.
Tyler bought an HP 842C inkjet printer at Best Buy, according to the suit. The smart chips are used in consumer printers HP Deskjet 812C, 804C and 842C, and commercial printers 2000C and 2500C, the suit said.
The March 2004 issue of PC World magazine took an in-depth look at printers that stopped working before the ink had run out. The magazine found that the Epson Stylus C84, a popular, low-cost inkjet printer, stopped printing with 20 percent of the ink left in the cartridge, on average. The Canon i850 stopped printing with 10 percent of its ink left.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Bert (2/22/05 10:42 PM) | + / - | When is someone going to go after HP for selling short filled cartridges for the same price as a fully filled cartridge? The 15 and 45 are a good example. As far as I'm concerned, this is a kind of fraud. The short filled and tiny cartridge game is a crying shame. I repair HP inkjet printers, but this is one reason I don't recommend any inkjet that was made in the last three years or so if someone asks.
Another couple of class action lawsuits may cause HP and others to 'get religion'.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (2/26/05 10:10 AM) | + / - | Please let me know how I can join this class action suit against HP.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by dmzcompute (2/26/05 1:08 PM) | + / - | Well I think it is about time for me to add my two cents to the class action debate. First off let me say I am a certified HP tech and do work for a HP authorized service provider. I find nothing wrong with the manner in which HP is conducting business with regards to their consumables. Let us be practical. The consumer printer market has changed over the last 20 years. Today when a manufacturer introduces a new product he has to sell it at or below cost in order to compete in the market place. Consumers are so price conscious that they always look for the most features with the lowest price. In order for the company to get any return on its investment it has to make money some place and they all do it with their consumables. I myself do not have a problem with that. Many of you do, because face it you are CHEAP. Nothing is wrong with that. Well HP has developed a system of smart chips and other methods to make sure most of you buy their consumables. Nothing is wrong with that either. As to the expiration date, I think the lawsuit has some errors. HP does have an expiration date on most of their inkjet cartridges, but is it printed on the cartridge and also printed on the packaging containing the cartridge. It is there simply because over time the ink cartridge will not work because of the ink channel drying up or for other reasons. As to how much ink is in the cartridge, HP usually guarantees a certain amount of ml of ink to come from the cartridge and in most cases the cartridge will contain more so as to meet the guarantee. That is the reason there is always ink left in those guaranteed cartridges.
When drug companies come out with new medications they have a right to only produce them and it is a number of years before generic companies can produce them. Well should not HP or other companies have the same protections when they develop new products and the consumables they use.
Lets be fair. HP and the other manufacturers are in business to make money. When they do, they come out with new and improved products to help us. The cycle will continue as long as we pay a fair price for the products and the consumables they need. Face it if the prices are not fair the companies will eventually go out of business. Everyone wants to beat the system, but sometimes you have to play along with it.
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| Re: Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (2/26/05 4:04 PM) | + / - | At least drug companies save lives. When was the last time you saw HP do anythng other than make a page come out faster and charge you more for it?
In fact I love it.... Get a new laserjet 1300 and a toner is 100 dollars now for a 2000 page toner. What a deal! Seems funny that I can buy a laserjet 1100 that does as good a job for 1/3 the price and get a toner for 1/2 that price that lasts longer. Hmm. Do the math. Seems to me that HP isn't really doing the consumer much favors.
if the drug companies followed the business model of HP I think we wouldn't see any more medicine coming out. I'd personally like to see hp charge the correct price for printers and charge realistic prices for the consumables. Maybe then our printers that are 2-3 years old would be worth more than 20 dollars at a garage sale.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by dmzcompute (2/26/05 10:12 PM) | + / - | Why don't you post with your name instead of anonymous. If conusmers were willing to pay what a printer is actually worth, all the manufactuers would not have to sell at or below cost. It is because consumers are to cheap to pay for what they get, so they force the hands of the people who produce them. HP still produces the best product and offers the best support of any one out there. Maybe you need to go and live in Cuba since they probably have the business model you appreciate. Good Luck.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Bert (2/26/05 10:41 PM) | + / - | I fundamentally agree with dmzcompute concerning the consumer. They want cheap products. On the other hand they are clueless concerning the issues that determine whether it makes sense to repair or buy new. HP is no help either when they refuse to sell repair parts even for recent inkjets. Consumers are so used to disposing of broken products that it plays into HP's and other manufacture's hands. There's enough guilt to go around.
I stick by my guns. It's fraud to sell two identical cartridges for the same price but with less ink in one of them. If you believe there is right and wrong, this is immoral. The consumer typically doesn't know he's been conned because I talk with them all of the time. Many corporations seem to be amoral and only respond under financial pressure, a sad thing.
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 | Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by moe (2/27/05 3:37 PM) | + / - | Printer manufacturers do all they can to lock out aftermarket competition and force customers to buy their replacement cartridges, said Tricia Judge, editorial director of the International Imaging Technology Council, a Las Vegas-based trade association for printer cartridge remanufacturing.
The council has been battling printer manufacturers in and out of court, seeking an open market and claiming that replacement ink can be sold for much less than what manufacturrers charge, which they say reaches as much as $38,000 a gallon.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by dmzcompute (2/27/05 3:50 PM) | + / - | But Moe is not it a double edged sword. If aftermarket manufacturers can sell the ink, then the one who produced the printer has no incentive since they have to sell the printer at or below cost just to be competitive in the market place. The only thing they can make a profit on is the consumables. Keep in mind the aftermarket people do not have anywhere near the cost that the original manufacturer has in developing the item, promoting and selling it. Without the high markup for the consumables, there would be no profit in the long run. Remember it is not just the cost of the ink, but the cost of research, development, production and advertising which the aftermarket company does not have. Fair is fair. You have to look at it from both sides. If you were in HP shoes you would do the same.
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 | Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by moe (2/27/05 4:46 PM) | + / - | That is a good point, but I have a few problems with HP's tactics. I don't agree with the date chip. It's not right to force low use customers to replace cartridges that are half full. What about someone who buys a cartridge that is close to the expiration date?
Going back to my toner cartridge rebuilding days, I can relate all kinds of HP schemes to stop recylers from cutting into their market share. One case in point was the 75A. They changed the wiper blade so instead of lasting 4 cycles, it failed after the initial cycle. Then there was their own short-lived program to rebuild their own cartridges. Some marketing lackey came up with the idea of selling return envelopes, where you sent your cartridge to HP's remanufacturing center and got it back a week later. The cost was higher than the average remanufactured cartridge, so the whole program tanked in a few months.
Continuing on to their "Green earth" campaign: They include a return sticker with each cartridge. Supposedly, the cartridges are disassembled and component parts are incorporated in new cartridges. In truth, it's cheaper to make new cartridges, than to disassemble, clean, inspect, sort and recycle the old parts. Sad reality is they are all shipped to China where they dump out the waste toner and toss and burn the leftovers.
They aren't the good guys they pretend to be. I'd like to see them go back to the printers they built in the good old days. A printer you could drop off your desk, put it back on the desk and it would still work. Enough of this cheap $50 crap, just built with the intent of selling their expensive half-filled ink cartridges.
There are 15 year old Deskjet printers out there still printing. If you get a little aggressive removing a paper jam on one of the newer printers, that's the end of it. Close the cartridge holder cover wrong, it breaks and there aren't any replacements. Does the public really want these "disposable" printers?
As a fellow tech, I'd prefer they go back to building solid printers with available replacement parts. As it is now, you can buy whole printers with new ink or toner cheaper than you can buy the consumables for. I've seen the repair end of our business dwindling. I have to tell a lot more customers to just toss the printers they bring in as they aren't worth repairing or there aren't any repair parts available. I might be retiring earlier than I had planned to.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (2/27/05 4:48 PM) | + / - | Sounds like HP has sold the political action committee garbage line to the trained technicians very well. If HP really did put as much into the R&D instead of paying the overpaid and underperforming execs of the company we wouldn't have these problems now would we? Last I checked the laserjets today have less consumable output and higher costs, seems to me they don't offer better value to the consumer. They seem to be offering less value. Explain that.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by dmzcompute (2/27/05 6:37 PM) | + / - | Another Anonymous heard from. If you do not agree with me that is fine, but a least say who you are. First off it is not only HP. It is all the printer makers out there doing this and that is one of the reasons due to competetion that the printer are sold at or below cost. As to value for the customer when was the last time you could buy a color laser printer for 349.00 that does a much better and faster job then the hp color laser 8550 which was around for a few years. The 149.00 mono lasers do better than the hp 5 did although the 5 was built like a tank but I would think per cost copy is about the same. As a tech I really do not like the situation since in a couple of years I will be out of a job since no one will fix their printer anymore. Do not blame the printer makers, blame the consumers who will not buy unless it is rock bottom price. I did not hear all that much complaining when Microsoft was selling its os for over 100.00 when it cost them less then 1.00 to produce.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (2/28/05 3:46 PM) | + / - | first off, the toner/ink coverages that they state (i.e. 2000pgs of toner life, etc) are at 5% coverage which is an INDUSTRY standard. you have to be realistic in the sense that if you print a photo vs. a one page letter, i wonder which one will use more ink?? could it be that you may not actually get 2000pgs out of that toner?? GROW A BRAIN, anyone who joins this lawsuit is money hungry but the funniest thing about it is you MIGHT get $1 out of it in the end. again, MIGHT
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Bert (2/28/05 4:55 PM) | + / - | People with a brain know that the lawyers are going to get most of the money and the plaintiffs may get coupons for a few cartridges. I'm not interested in even a coupon, but rather a change in the way HP and their accomplices do business. Had corporations not gotten so uppity in the 1800s antitrust laws would have never been legislated.
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 | Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by t5150 (3/2/05 12:07 PM) | + / - | dmzcompute; you would be happy to buy a 6 month battery for your car and have it last only two months?
Then when you take it back to the dealer, and you have some brown nosed service person tell you that you’re just a cheap person because you do not accept to pay full price for a new battery?
I do not think so!
When you get a recall, do you take your car to the dealer and offer to pay them to fix it?
If you were not an hp service person or a reseller but the person who would consume a larger amount of ink, I think you would be right along everyone else.
Wrong is wrong.
(By the way, I am certified by HP for the printers, and my current position is a HP-UX Admin.)
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by t5150 (3/2/05 12:12 PM) | + / - | Hey Bert,
It would be better for HP to have to give the coupons AND supply a firmware patch for the problem.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by dmzcompute (3/2/05 3:19 PM) | + / - | T5150,
I think you miss the point. Everyone is entitled to be cheap, frugal or whatever. There is an old adage you get what you pay for. If you want cheap you will get cheap and do not blame the vendor if it or the consumables do not last as long as you think they should. HP and the other vendors are just trying to protect their investments and make money for their stockholders. That is the American way. If you do not like it, sorry about that. All this class action will do is make some lawyers rich because HP like others before it will settle the case by agreeing to pay a couple of million to the lawyers and give the consumers coupons for whatever.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by t5150 (3/2/05 4:15 PM) | + / - | dmz,
Think you missed the point of the suite - make it hurt their bottom line.
Btw, my wife’s printer is not the cheaper ones, 2710 multifunction printers.
I will join just to extract the extra pound of flesh from a vendor who is actively screwing the customer over.
Then again, in a week, I just might take it back to Fry's and allow them to eat it.
I do not like to pour money down the toilet.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (3/2/05 9:27 PM) | + / - | I used to enjoy protecting the laserjet lineup but it looks like the inkjet morons at hp infiltrated the laserjet line. It's true give it 10 years and this whole industry is going to ba a toilet bowl. Look for the landfill for a laserjet that breaks. Heck these clowns will be like apple and just not make repair parts, that's next. HP will just not make parts to really stick it to the repair end. That way they can jack everyone. As far as the class action, the end user always jets the short end, the 5L settlement... a cheap sep pad repair that falls off and a coupon... the coupon was to buy a new laserjet back then a laserjet was like 400 dollars! And if my memory serves right the same misfeeding problem 1100! What a joke!
At least with Microsoft there is innovation. HP isnt innovating DPI on a black and white laser printer. faster print speed please... these printers don't need to be 20ppm for a business. In fact most shake so bad they rattle the desk. Who needs it. Flimsy, low toner pages, 100 dollar toners, and just what I need a chip counting toner, I guess my eyes can't tell me when I need a new one.
HP thinks we are a bunch of morons I guess or they are reaching real hard.
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 | Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (3/3/05 7:37 PM) | + / - | Hello Everyone.
I just purchase the HP Business Inkjet 1100 Series last year Aug 2004. I wonder if my printer is affected? It uses the HP 10 and HP 11 ink cartridges and it uses a "SMARTCHIP"?
I don't understand what people are Complaining about. Do consumers know that the HP Business Inkjet lines uses "REAL INK" and it does not dry like the other HP color or black inks like for instance HP 56 and HP 57,HP TRI COLOR CARTRIDGES and the new HP 99 or 100 etc. Even if they have smartchip enabled I still like it because it's unlike other manufacture or HP itself uses a "SPONGE" (The one I just mention ed above with the HP's and the number) which can dry your inks if you do not print for quite a long time. With the HP Business line they use real ink and it's now half a year and I still have 45% bk and 48% cyan and 51% yellow and megenta 44%. I always use the "BEST" mode to print and I STILL have the a lot of ink left in the "TRIAL" cartridges. I did not even have to change my ink cartridges. I print everyday. You go HP with your inovations and keep up the good work.
Please people I am not trying to create a thing here I am just telling people the truth. Look at the good instead of the bad people.
Mike C
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by cowardboy (3/4/05 1:49 PM) | + / - | How does one participate in the class action suit?
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (3/4/05 2:34 PM) | + / - | That is what I want to know.
Mike C
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 | Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (3/4/05 4:25 PM) | + / - | Hi Moe,
Thank you for the website but what is the case number and did you file it yourself?
Mike C
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (3/4/05 5:10 PM) | + / - | Are all the HP Business Inkjet line affect by this law suit or just the HP 2000c Pro/2550?
Mike C
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by moe (3/4/05 5:34 PM) | + / - | I did contact them and request more info. Waiting for a reply. I'm not sure which printers are affected, but I know the 2000 and 2500 both had date chips on the cartridges. Probably all the business inkjets that use the same style cartridges as in the 2000/2500 series are candidates for the class-action. If you think class actions don't have an effect on the companies, HP quit making vertical feed printers after they lost the 5L/6L/1100 class action suit. There's nothing wrong with chipping cartridges to keep track of page count and other things, but I can't see their argument on the necessity of the date chips. Something about expired ink causing damage to the printer.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (3/4/05 5:39 PM) | + / - | HI moe,
Yes thank you for the reply. I want to keep updated with this infomation. I LOVE HP printers. There great. Last a long long time. Unlike other printer companies. Yes that is true something exired ink causing that it can damage the printer. HP always says that. Do they have proof? Well my Business Inkjet Printer 1100 uses the HP 10 and HP 11. They have smart chips on their cartridges. I will go to the website you posted and request infomation. Yes class actions does have an effet on comapnies you are right.
Thank you
Mike C :)
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Gofunkel (3/9/05 7:07 PM) | + / - | Don't like it? Don't buy HP. This is all information that is readily available to the consumer who chooses to make an informed purchase decision.
If the posting at the top of this thread is correct, it's rather interesting since the 800 series deskjets listed use an entirely different printing technology and ink cartridges than the 2000-series.
The units that use separate printheads and cartridges have an expiration for a reason. The design is such that air entering the ink delivery system can damage both the printheads, which are consumable, as well as the manifold, which is not a comsumable item. This is self-protection from the damage. Even with this, the customer has the ability to override this and continue until the ink is completely depleted. The instructions are right in the owners manual. But don't go looking for warranty repair when your next printheads last 2000 pages instead of 10,000.
Ink has an expiration. It does not last forever. If you put a can of gasoline for your lawnmower in your shed for a year and a half, then take it out to use, you'll find it likely won't work. Should you be able to sue the petrochemical company that made it? Ink is a collection of chemicals, it have a life span.
You want to refill your cartridges? Read the theory behind how inkjet catridge technology works. In a very short form, you are using electrical current to basically "boil" the ink out of a microscopic hole and locate it correctly on the page. What are the chances some guy in his basment is going to match the checmical composition, viscosity, boiling point, etc. of HP's ink exactly? Has anyone produced a cola that tastes exactly like Pepsi? Can you refill a can of Pepsi and resell it? So then why is ink any different?
HP makes alot of good products, with cutting edge technology. They also make alot of paperweights and disposable printers. If a comsumer chooses to spend their money without being educated about their purchase first, let them learn their lesson the expensive way.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Teraforce (3/10/05 2:28 PM) | + / - | Heck, I got a 2-year old #26 cartridge sitting in my 12-year old Deskwriter... Still Prints great (Although I had to manually clean all the gunk off the carts). It's probably expired; yet I have no problems. Besides, is there really any EVIDENCE that expired ink causes damage to printers???
HP always has, and still makes, quality printers. Even though my 990Cse doesn't seem quite as high-quality as my old deskrwriter (build-quality-wise), I just checked the enging count on it and it reported 20,494 pages. Not too bad for an inkjet.
The difference now is that you must pay a premium for higher build quality (990Cse, vs, say, an hp 3xxx series inkjet), instead of knowing that almost all of their older printers had tank-grade build quality.
Just curious, exactly how long does it take for a "smart chip" to send the expiration signal (From the day it mf'd to the day it expires)?
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by b33p3r (3/10/05 3:04 PM) | + / - | I have the perfect solution. If you don't like HP, don't buy HP. If enough of us do it, then they will be forced to change their ways. Money talks.....like it or not.
Bill
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 | HP...you bought it, you pay for it. over and over by chris (3/10/05 3:47 PM) | + / - | Here's my two cents. Ink and Toner is HP's money in the bank. if they want to be cheap about it, i guess it's their right. If the general public doesn't like the high price of ink (face it...30 bucks is a joke. it costs HP 10 cents to make and fill a cartridge), there are other companies out there. and those companies also overprice the consumables...
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by chris (3/10/05 3:58 PM) | + / - | The point several of you are missing is this. The only winner here will be a fat pocketed #%$@%$!# !#$%!#%$#!$ law firm. not the consumer. the whole "sueing HP for my gravity feed printer problem" made me laugh, and who won anything? The law firm. I'm surprised Dell and IBM didn't get sued. they both have gravity feed printer designs currently in the marketplace. Problem here, is that anyone can sue anybody. that's absolutly pathetic. some !!! !!!! of a lawyer will walk away with millions, and the average consumer might get a 10% off coupon of his/her next purchase of HP ink...can you tell what i don't like about this lawsuit???
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Teraforce (3/10/05 4:07 PM) | + / - | Sad but true, this world is. It's unbelievable that when a customer sues the company, they get hardly anything while the law firms get all the cash.
It's hard to avoid the high price of consumables. You can, however, look for prices of consumables, find the cheapest ones, then get the printer that's associated with them. Also, look for older printers. While they have been used, some of them are built like tanks (Like the original deskjet/deskjet 500 line) and will outlast any other inkjet that's made today. Another tip-make sure the consumables hold a good amount of ink. I.E., look for printers that use a 45 instead of the 15. General rule: look for carts that hold at least 40mL. I don't recommend refilling carts or getting 3rd party carts only because they can really mess up your printer sometimes.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (3/10/05 4:30 PM) | + / - | Hi Everyone,
I am not complaing about HP stuff. There fantastic and yes I have 3 printers from HP. Well one I cause it to break so its NOT HP's fault. I had one HP Deskjet 820Cse, now I have the HP Business Inkjet 1100 series which I LOVE. USES real ink not SPONGE. The other printer is the HP Officeject 5510 which I don't like becuase HP uses the sponge for the color and now I don't print that much with the color or the black and now its dry so I just refill those babies. Hey, what ever says the brand HP I LOVE IT. Oh yes when I ever see an HP representative I always complment them on how good there products are. I always say this wherever I see them "Keep on the good innovations and good work" "Keep on going HP" My favorite words to HP. I justed wanted to know if it affects my printer that is all. I hate CANON because they do not have seprate printheads and when its clogged I cannot change them to Canon unlike HP Business Inkjet Printers they have seprate printheads and if one color is clogged I just buy that one color. My HP two cent. HP WIN!
Mike C
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Teraforce (3/11/05 1:18 PM) | + / - | It's unbelievable, HP's schemes for ink carts. I mean, look at the 45/15 cart thing. Selling a half-filed cart because you got a cheap printer is not right at all. HP ought to be sued for that right there.
Also, HP likes to use tri-color carts instead of individual carts because they can make more money. A tri-color costs more than a single color cart, and, if one color runs out, then you waste the other 2 colors, and therefore, money, by buying a whole new cart.
Unbelievable.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by brad2 (3/11/05 2:49 PM) | + / - | OK, its fair to say that its a competitive marketplace, but i think the consumer should learn about all this stuff. Most dont have time to read boards like this. If HP wants to be in good graces of the consumer, it should act responsible.
Think of enviornemtal concers as well.
they sell you a cartrige /12 full of ink, its a waste, i for one will never use HP again just for that fact alone.
i agree with the poster above as well about the tri-coler carts.
The average consumer doesnt think about that when he goes to buy a printer, if you use black only then you have to throw away the whole cart with all the other colors full.
If i had the ablility to open a new company and make printers , i would.
i would make them compatible to any aftermarket ink as much as possible.
then sell the printer at a high price, knowing that i wont make a dime of the consumables.
I think people who were burned once on having to spend $ for ink would flock to but it.
HP's ink is too high for what you get, and they make it impossible for you to use an after market product.
My epson C82 seems to eat ink. i was paying $ so i decided to try non-epson ink.
anyway, it was working fine, the cartirges were 3/4 full, then it just dropped a big black spot on the page. then i tried a nozzel clean, and it said i was out of magenta.
1 nozzle clean and it went from 3/4 full to out?
I am an EE and a good bench tech, i thik there is definately something funny about the programming on those cartriges.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by printer fixer (3/11/05 6:06 PM) | + / - | I've seen a lot of post on this board where people are complaining about HP printers. Here is my two cents.
In reguards to the people complaining about HP making disposable printers. They do. HP makes a wide line of printers. The deskjet printers range in prine from $50 to $500. They don't just make disposable printers they also make a lot of good quality printers. It's just that most people are CHEAP. In order to put printers on the market that in the $50 range. The need to be able to manufacture them cheaper. They do this by using cheaper materials. That is why thier entrie level printers don't last as long. They are cheap printer designed for people that print on a small scale. But if you look at the Deskjet 61xx printers they are tanks. They cost more but they bnuilt to stand up to a heavier volume of print jobs. They next to never braek down. They are built more solid with stronger mor durrable materials. That is why they cost more. It gose with the saying "You get what you pay for"
In response to people complaining about cartridges expiering, The cartridge has an expier date stamped into the cartridge. It also has an install befor date printed on the outside of the box it comes in. The install befor date is six months befor the expier date. You would not but milk without checking the date on the tab. Why would you by ink with out checking the date. Any cartridge made by HP today, has an expier date of 2 years from now. 2 years is more then enough time to use 14ml or 27ml of ink. Most cartridge will last well past their exp date with out problems. he reason the have an experation date on them is that plain and simple, Ink dries out. How many times have you picked up a pen. You can see that there is ink in the pen but none comes out when you try to write. That is because the ink in the tip of the pen has dreid up. The same thing can happen in the nozzle of the cartridge. That is why HP will warranty their cartridge. HP cartridge all have a warranty. The warrenty on the cartridge is until the cartridge is empty or out of ink witch ever comes first
And lastly I have a comment to the people complaining about aftermarket cartridges. I fix printer. As someone that fixes printer I see dozens of printers a week that are fubard because some one thought they would save money by using refilled cartridges that leaked all over the inside of their printer. I also see people complaing about reduced print quality and missing colours or even the wrong colours comming out of the cartridge. Most of the time it's because Refilled and recycled cartridges are crap. If I buy an HP and it leaks all over the inside of my printer. HP will replace the cartridge and fix my printer if need be. Even if my printer is out of warranty they will still repair the damage caused by a defective cartridge for free. If I get my cartridges refilled will the moron in the mall with the refill stand do the same thing.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (3/11/05 8:37 PM) | + / - | People if you are concerning about the tri-color buy the Business Inkjet lines that uses REAL-INK and not the spong ink such as the tri-color cartridges. But the Business Inkjet lines has the smart-chip which what this is all about. I personally don't care at all. People look at this way you actually SAVE $$$ you know with REAL INK and not a SPONGE that can dry you inks.
Mike C
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by cla (3/18/05 10:34 AM) | + / - | I AM GLAD TO SAY THAT I DONT BUY hp PRODUCTS AND WONT EVER BUY ANOTHER COMPAQ PRODUCT, I AM JUST GLAD THAT I STAYED WITH MY CANON PRINTER FOR IT HAS FIVE INK TANKS IN IT AND YOU DONT HAVE TO THROW AWAY ANY OF YOUR INK ALL YOU DO IS REPLACE THE ONE THAT RUNS OUT, I FEEL THAT THEY ALL SHOULD BE MADE TO MAKE THE PRINTERS LIKE THAT FOR THEY ARE ROBBING THE PEOPLE BUYING THE INK AND HAVE TO THROW IT AWAY, GO CANON OR BROTHER AND THEN YOU WONT HAVE THESE PROBLEMS.LEARN hp AND COMPAQ A LESSON OR TWO FOR ONE TIME.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Teraforce (3/18/05 12:43 PM) | + / - | Do they put sponges in their ink carts just so it would dry out faster??? Or am I mistaken? What is that purpose of the "sponge"?
If the purpose of the sponge is so that the ink carts would dry out faster, then that is one lawsuit waiting to happen.
Im also curious- I notice that hp's carts do not allow you to see the ink inside. I know canon's carts are clear. I bet hp's trying to hide something...(Funny, too, because the old 26 cart used in the original deskjet/deskjet 500 line was clear...)
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (3/18/05 2:20 PM) | + / - | HI Teraforce.
YES HP does put SPONGES in there tri-color cartridges. Now on the HP56-58 they also have sponges in the black cartridges also. The NEW VIVERA ink also uses a songe cartrdiges. That is why I am telling people who uses the sponges cartridges to print once in a while otherwise it will dry up. Here is the link to what I am talking about.
http://tinyurl.com/6b3v8
Mike C
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by alyson003 (3/21/05 11:20 AM) | + / - | I am putting my two cents in about HP products. I have a HP Color laserjet 2550 and in the past 6 months I have replaced the drum and bought countless color toners. I know for a fact that when the device status says there is 0% ink left and quits printing there is at least an additional 20% more ink left that the printer refuses to use. I had a printer technician open a cartridge up and he showed me what an 'acutal' empty one looked like vs mine which supposedly had none left. Mine looked almost half full. HP has programmed thier printers to shut down so you will replace the cartridge and send them the used one (to get the free pack of paper at Office Depot) so they can just sell that ink to another fool like me willing to pay for it. I will NOT ever by another HP product again due to this experience.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Printer Fixer (3/21/05 4:23 PM) | + / - | Never buy a 2500 or 1500
The 2500 or 1500 series is the biggest sham. Those printers should be the textbook model of marketing scams. How HP ever pulled off that bs is beside me. Most people just run them till they run out of toner and then sell them on ebay and then go buy a new one. Don't ever go buy new toners. If anything go get a 4550, they at least are built to last.
The bottom line is HP is too big. They want to sell everything to everyone and somehow they will make a 99 or 149 dollar laserjet that will print 20ppm and 1200dpi. It will last about 2 toners and then the fuser will shred apart or it shake itself apart and fail. People will get all pissed off. When these printers cost 399 and up it was one thing but now these clowns charge 99-150 for them and then rape the consumer on 100 dollar 2k page toners. Backdoor ripoff artists. I guess they got u by the cahonas... pay now or pay later... hp will get you evetually. I'll take a rebuilt 1100 or 2100 anyday over these flimsy printers.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by JimSmith (4/5/05 11:26 AM) | + / - | This is one forum, despite the whining, that had many good points. As an ink chemist & formulator, I thought some of the points needed clarification. (Please do not try to contact me or post inquiries regarding ink purchases.) But, let me address economic issues first.
1)First, we all know that if we paid the true retail price (not mfr. cost) of inkjet technology, printers would cost 5 to 10 times what they do now, IF they were mfd. in the U.S. Also, the bulk of the mfging is done by machines, with little manual involvement. HP, Epson, Canon, Lexmark, Brother, etc., sell printers cheaply NOT because they want to, but only because it is in their best economic interest. If they do not make them, foreign competition from economically emerging countries will; and, they will make cheaper consumables to accompany them.
The average American no longer posesses the fortitude neccesary to exercise the deferred gratification that will have an economic impact on government and large corporations. Few people understand the impact that even a short-term boycott would have. Your only true resource for economic influence over a situation is not to buy and to decommend a product based on QUALITY and overall operating COST. If you are unhappy with either, quit whining and do something about it. It is up to you to be resourceful & unite with others of like mind to achieve your goals and purposes. If your purpose is to decrease the COST PER PAGE, then join others who will TAKE ACTION. I can tell you from personal experience that there are creative solutions to just about every problem. And the cost of consumables is, to high volume printers, a definite problem.
2)There are various methods used for each cartridge. HP mostly uses the resistive-boil method. The sponge has several purposes:
a)its capillary action creates the negative pressure gradient necessary to assist keeping the ink from escaping through the ink channels during quiscence in the cheaper combo cartridges.
b)it filters out particles larger than the size of its own capillary network.
It does not "dry out the ink". After a while, when the cartridge gets low, there is not enough available moisture in the cartridge to be carried to the upper layers of the sponge, so those capillaries eventually dry out. When they do, they leave behind layers of previously agglomerated ink, which prevents further refilling of the cartridge, as well as cause equalization problems. The sponge also prevents outdated, agglomerated ink that would have plugged up the jets. One of the key hygroscopic ingredients in IJ ink is glycerin. So, a tip: if you never let your cartridge get below about 1/3 full of ink, you will prolong, not prevent, your cartridge from plugging. These cartridges happen to be the easiest to refill because they don't need special tricks to achieve the proper pressure balance for normalized ink flow.
Regarding longevity of inks:
Yes, ink does have a lifespan. Although the considerations for each system are different, inks, especially pigmented inks, have a lifespan of about 2 to 3 years. Any system should be able to tolerate a moderate amount of air ( a properly designed ink should pull moisture from the air into the ink to prevent drying. Too much air will cause premature agglomeration). Agglomeration or flocculation of pigmented inks over time, however, is inescapable.
As for HP's excuses for forced expiration:
If their idea is for the consumer to trash the "expired" cartridge, then what good is not allowing the consumer to use up all the ink? Even if the ink plugs the DISPOSABLE cartridge, the intended outcome is the same. This aparently is an obvious method to prevent re-filling.
Never use ink older than 2 1/2 years in a multi-component system (CMYK tanks + head separate). As well, if you value your combo head, avoid older ink, as it will plug as well.
Now the facts about what HP and others SHOULD be charging for their products?:
What have we done to determine if HP is charging a fair price for their products, and are we able to obtain that information? How many of you can tell me what HP has left over after Price - Cost? Will someone from HP step forward and give the facts? If you're going to make a case against HP, you need some facts regarding fairness in business practices. As far as I can surmise, you bought your HP printer because you like the quality of the print and the features it contains.
Now my opinion:
On a macro-economic scale, we cannot compete with other countries because they have things going for them we don't have:
1)governments that make it easy for anyone to engage in business without a multitude of red tape
2)a far fewer percentage of the population that works for the government
3)the bulk of their work force produces a GNP profit from the transformation of raw materials into exportable goods. Most of the jobs over here now eat away at our economy instead of bolstering it.
4)as a direct result of low taxes and non-interference, they can do any easily exportable work (including computer-based jobs) for 1/3 the cost we can, because our cost of living is so high.
How does this affect IJ printing? It already has. How many HP printers do you think are actually made in the states? How many cartridges do you think are made here? For that matter, when you buy a name brand computer, where do you think it's made? It sure would be nice to think that that $40.00 you spent on a cartridge or that $1200.00 you spent on a computer was helping to employ American workers. Any economic expenditure that does not increase exportable GNP directly affects our economy.
Conclusion:
If you think that the owners and CEOs of HP deserve salaries in the 10's and 100's of milions, and you want to help them achieve this, then you are paying a fair price for your goods. (I certainly wouldn't mind the money. If you're saving by refilling your own, send some money to me, as much as possible.) I know if you could get $4,000.00 a gallon for ink, you might be greedy enough to do it. I think all disposables are not only blatantly overpriced, they also contradict a sound ecological and environmental policy. If someone calls you "cheap" because you're concerned that your children will be buried in a mound of "disposable" crap 50 years from now, it's water off a duck's back; do what you have to do to minimize the trash. What we really need is a printer that can be refilled without ever having to remove the cartridge from the printer. We all know the main reason for disposables of most kinds is $$$$$. It's a foregone conclusion that most companies and individuals will be rational maximizers of economic self-interest. So let's give them the latitude we would give ourselves.
The Sherman Anti-Trust law looks good on paper; the American business model lately seems to favor monopolies and revenue maximization. Whatever the case, manufacturers and governments pay people whose job it is to collect price-influencing and taxing data and shape it into bell curves. If your level of purchasing tolerance fits their bell curve, then you can't complain. Otherwise, Standardly Deviate yourself, or find a creative solution.
We have been refilling our cartridges here for years, and have never had a problem. Do some research; find out:
1)what printers have cartridges which have forced expiration?
2)which printer's cartridges are easiest to refill?
3)where can I get good ink?
In short, do not support any system which you are not comfortable with. I can tell you from the experiences of filling different types of mfr. cartridges, HP printers do a fairly good job with aftermarket inks.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (4/5/05 1:27 PM) | + / - | HI Jim Smith,
Yes as for the sponge part "The sponge has several purposes:
a)its capillary action creates the negative pressure gradient necessary to assist keeping the ink from escaping through the ink channels during quiscence in the cheaper combo cartridges.
b)it filters out particles larger than the size of its own capillary network."
Yes you are correct on the above sentences. As for the part about drying up YES it does dry up because I got an BRAND NEW HP 41 cartridge for my HP 820Cse before I throw it out and it's FULL of ink and its a sponge cartridge and I rarely print it then when I start to print it does "dry" up. Some colors show on paper and some are not. I try cleaning the print heads and nothing is works so I had to add more ink and then it prints. Also the true part if you do not print "so those capillaries eventually DRY OUT".
Mike C
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by JimSmith (4/8/05 6:10 PM) | + / - | Mike C.,
Very good. I should have mentioned, but took for granted that most people understand that any moist area bounded by two or more openings will eventually dessicate. Almost all ink cartridges fit this profile; the jets provide one opening, the equalization chamber the other.
Obviously, the more often you print, the less plugging and agglomeration you will have.
Although the sponge assists somewhat in plugging, the main reason for drying is air removing moisture from the cartridge over time. When this happens, there are more ink particles left than can be suspended in solution, so they agglomerate.
If you use your printer infrequently in a setting where cold air of low humidity is circulating, this will decrease the MTBF of your printheads.
All in all, I'd say that inkjet is still a bit better than dot matrix, eh?
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (4/8/05 6:25 PM) | + / - | Hi JimSmith,
Yes people do take it for granted and most people do not know what's in their cartridges. And that is why people like the word "SUE" to printer companies becuase they "think" printer companies did this on purpose by using a smart chip. Yes you are correct MOST of the ink cartridges fit this profile and there is a sponge in it like the HP 56-58 I mentioned above. But hey HP has a NEW DESIGNJET 90. They use the smart chip and uses REAL ink plus there ink cartridges are 225ML. WOW look at that people. I mean what printer company give you such MUCH ink? I am jealous now LOL because that printer has SO MUCH REAL INK in their cartridge. Yes the sponge assists in plugging that is true so they can cause a mess. I ALWAYS print a lot so it does not matter to me now that I have the HP Business Inkjet Series. Even if I do not print for a while at least it's NOT a SPONGE cartridge and it won't dry out my ink. Yes true Inkjet is better then dot matrix but Laser is better then Inkjet won't you say so? No drying at least what so ever. I am an HP fan and I am PROUD of HP. YOU GO HP. I hope HP WINS over this battle. :)
Mike C
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (4/12/05 10:09 AM) | + / - | Once you have missed a dead line because your printer late at night decided all of a sudden that the half full #10 print cartridge was empty and quit printing, you will be in a mood to join anything that will hurt HP. A better path than the lawsuit, though it is a start, would be to copy the legislation in Europe that outlawed smart chips and lobby congress to pass it. Also, I have informed HP that I will not purchase ANYTHING with the HP label on it as long as they use the smart chips. I intend to stick with that. If 10 or 20 thousand emails like that went to HP per month, their printer sales would reflect it and they would take notice. So, write your congress person today, tomorrow and regularly. Also pass it on to others and stop buying HP.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (4/12/05 10:51 AM) | + / - | HI Anonymous,
I print EVERYDAY or so. I do not CARE if they have smart chips. People realize that HP 10,11,12, and 85 cartridges and some other cartrides uses REAL INK PEOPLE.
Mike C
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Wyorattler (4/14/05 8:11 AM) | + / - | I am wondering where the chip in the INK cartridge gets its clock/date? From the OS or the BIOS of the CPU. I would imagine the cartridge has to be told what the date is. Anyone? It would suck working like this but at least you wouln't be hard pressed at the last momment to run to the store just so you can print.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Charger440 (4/14/05 9:08 AM) | + / - | I think you all have good points and bad points. THe only problem I have is when I go look for a printer now days I have to really research the issue and see what printer regardless the manufacturer is really worth spending money on. Most printers made now days remond me of kids toys in the way they are made. There are also atleast 3 companies with known issues such as Lexmark being in a classaction suit because mis-feeds and multi-feeds and they KNOW about the problem but refuse to fix it. There is Canon that has defective system boards in a lot of printers especially the multi-functions. Again, they know about the issue but refuse to fix it. And finally we have HP that loves to kill and/or underfill their inks. Im just in the state of mind that I wonder IF you can even buy a reliable printer from anyone.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (4/14/05 9:36 AM) | + / - | HI Charger 440,
Yes its true now mostly printer manufacutre now a days is not what it use to be made then. It was much better then becuase at that time parts were good. Yea, most printer companies does know about the specific problem and they do not fix their problem because they want people to buy NEW printers so they can make money. Yes but I still recommended HP for printers because they are reliable even though they make errors.
Mike C
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| Re: Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by moe (4/14/05 10:38 AM) | + / - | They look at the computer clock. It's as simple as setting it back a year.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by JimSmith (4/14/05 5:57 PM) | + / - | Some of you should read this article on how to defeat the date/clock ram circuit on some HPs by temporarily disconnecting the battery. Here it is:
http://www.land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/letters/hpPrinters.php
As far as I'm concerned, one 60 minute modification is much better than 4 years worth of headaches, especially if you're a high volume printer.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Mike C (4/14/05 6:55 PM) | + / - | Hi Jim,
Thank you for the information. But that is not for the HP Business Inkjet Series and it's not for the HP 10 and 11 cartridges. I don't think that HP Business Inkjet Series uses a battery. Can you find any other information about it thanks. I tried and find but nothing shows up in the web.
Mike C
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| Re: Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (4/15/05 9:16 AM) | + / - | I have played around with this a little. I have a wireless network at home. I am using a WRT54GS Linksys router. The printer I have is a HP 2250tn printer. I have a desktop hooked up to the printer using the LTP port and I am running the NIC card from the printer to the router. I am also using this same router for the desktop to get to the internet.
When I do this I get the tonner cartridge expired routine. For both my wireless Laptop and Desktop computers. When I disconect the printer from the router and leave the printer plugged in to the LPT port the problem goes away and I can print using the "expired" toner. What I am thinking about doing (because I am cheap and it is printing just fine with the "expired" cartridge) is setting the time time on my router for a non expired date and see if the fixs this problem. Has anyone ever fiddled around with this and if so what kind of results did you get?
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Vancouver Mike (4/15/05 10:49 AM) | + / - | Wow, what a thread. I think I just found my problem. I run a small office and use a HP inkjet to print checks. I do not use it for anything else because I have two other printers hooked up to the computer, one for plan paper and one for letterhead. The check printer quit working the other day and said it the black ink cartridge needed to be replaced. I bought a new black cartridge and installed it and now it says the color cartridge needs replaced. Well, I don't use color, but the printer will not work anyway! I am not going to replace the high cost color cartridge just because HP wants to sell them! Sorry dmzcompute, you will have to get your pay raise elsewhere. I should have never got rid of the hp 520. It was black only and had more ink in it. Maybe E-Bay...........
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (4/15/05 10:51 AM) | + / - | why not sue over the crappy jetdirect cards that die on a daily basis?
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| Re: Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (4/20/05 5:52 AM) | + / - | Found your comments most helpful as I am right now having a problem with HP officejet 7100 series. Everyone is right about the sudden non printing from an expired cartridge. It happened to me; even though there was plenty of ink left, it just stopped printing. Now I know to check the date of expiration of the cartridge. I do refill my cartridges and for 1 1/2 yrs. have had no problem till now. You mentioned using a good ink. Can you recommend one and where to get it? I only used a refill kit from Sam's but maybe there is a better way.
Can anyone out there tell me how to get air out of the manifold?That is what the error seems to read.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by 123 (4/22/05 12:51 AM) | + / - | Without Prejudice
1.) Disable the bidiectional support under your printer properties tab
2.) Buy a used Pentium II or higher PC and convert it into a printer server running linux
3.) Connect the PC to the Printer via the parallel port
4.) Set the clock on your linux printer server 1 year before the expiry date on the cartridge.
5.) Keep all your empty Ink Cartridges and exchange the smart chip on the half full expired cartridges with an empty non expired cartridge of the same colour.
6.) Buy up 1 Litre bottles of compatible Ink and a syringe for each colour and refill the remaining ink cartridges.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by vfb (edited 4/28/05 4:57 AM) | + / - | Am I reading this right, I`ve just purchased a business inkjet 1100
brand new and boxed for US$30-00 in Australia (almost a give away price ).
I have only used it with Linux, the drivers are already in the Linux OS ( PCLinuxOS .81a ), and it worked straight out of the box.
Is it when window drivers are used that the clock / chip function on the cartridge is activated ( maybe with a mac too ) or does it retrive info via the cabling. The printer says it only works with M$ or Mac OS machines...
So have I started the timer on the cartridges...
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by vfastbear (5/1/05 4:25 AM) | + / - | After reading a lot of the posts about why you should or shouldn`t have smart chips in ink cartridges then the only way you can look at it is to compare them to other products.
Re - the high quality of the inks from HP - I have no doubts that large multinational chemical companies could make them as good - and thats assuming that HP makes the inks in the first place.
Some of the bulk inks are as good as any.
Looking at how theres a time limitation built into the cartridges -well looking at the box of my new inkjet 1100 - theres nothing at all about that, so anybody who says the infos out there - take another look. Since when did anybody do much research on buying what is a consumer item costing basically not that much. I bought mine amongst dozens of others on price and presentation ( It had a nice bright box full of exciting images ) from a large discount office equipment chain store.
Expectations - I didn`t expect there to be a time limitation on the inks - so people say inks deteriorate over time, well so does everything else too. Imagine if your car wouldn`t start one day because it detected that It hadn`t had an oil change that the manufacturer had programed into its computer... outrage.. and then imagine that the oil had to be the car companies oil because the oil container had an interface to the cars computer - and any other oil brand wouldn`t work - according to some earlier posts logic thats fine - obviously the car manufacturer knows better than you or me or any other oil company, and then you pay a price inflated 10-50 times over the bulk price - and you say thankyou, because they`re protecting your interests - and since cars cost heaps more than printers I think that that scheme should be manditory - to protect you against yourself....
But thats the logic of chipped ink cartridges.
Many years ago in the US, major electronics companies lost court cases after it was discovered that certain components were designed to fail after a period of time.... requiring you to get repairs - OR Buy a new item.
The printer industry seems to using similar tactics.
Tony in Oz.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by +EpsonUser (5/1/05 3:02 PM) | + / - | The "smart" chips on carts were always a bad idea. It would make more sense if they actually implemented a SENSOR in the cart to actually report the amount left. But the time protection scheme is worse. Ink does expire, but not that fast. This is just HP's way of making profit off unwary lusers. But from what I understand, this time-limited protection scheme indeed looks easy to crack.
Everybody crack these cartridges/printers and show HP what Intelligent Users we are, not a bunch of lusers.
And if you are still unsatisfied, buy an Epson. They do have chipped carts, but they're just ink counters, and simple to reset too.
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| Re: Re: Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by dncb (5/12/05 4:30 PM) | + / - | Thanks for that SIMPLE fix!!! Now what about defeating the low ink messeges that display even when the cartridge has just been refilled? Do you know any way to make those messages go away?
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (7/7/05 6:54 PM) | + / - | sorry..i stopped reading in the middle of the page
(right before my head exploded)
anyway do you know how much does the ink cost ???
i bought a 1 KG (wich is about 1 Litre) of each color
Yellow/Magneta/Cyan/Black
the colored (y/m/c) cost me about 66.67$ and the Black was 53.33$
so i had about 4000ml total
i already printed over 2000 papers (with BEST Quality and was about 27.8*18.2 cm/each)
note: 1 inch = 2.5 cm
and i still have half of each bottle so in other words it cost less than 0.0633$ / ml
note: an hp 57 tri-color cartidge cost about 26.66 $ while it costs me 1.0761 $ (it has 17ml)
given the info above you should know who is getting ripped off
*you say i had a cheap ink ... well it doesn't matter as long as it print the same colors !!!
*you say what about R&D .... what about it they did research and develep the inks a loooong time ago didn't they already cover the costs
i say if they want to sell the printers cheap and the consumables expensive.... then they must make a certain models work the other way around... they must make a high priced printers with very cheap consumables and spare parts and have a go with it
every bussiness that needs a lot of printing will welcome that idea
cause otherwise they'll only harm themselves...
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by ch.service (7/11/05 8:17 PM) | + / - | All in all the real issue here comes down to human greed..
We are all guilty in this way, We will use and abuse everything until it is all gone.. Technology makes this even easier.. Printers are no exception.
The more people that have printers, the more trees are destroyed to provide the paper..The more become landfill because they are unable to be repaired, etc etc
It used to be that only people who could afford a printer could own one, today they are basically given away and with that comes the idea that so should the consumables.
Also today all printer manufacturers operate on how many units they can get out the door (global sales), this furious pricing battle is not doing anyone any favours, people will opt for a sub-standard product for the same price or less than repairing a printer that has given years of good service.
I for one would like to see a return to companies making their money on the initial purchase of the product with units that can be repaired if required and are a reasonable price to run.
I understand however this will never happen unless there are some sort of technology restrictions imposed in general.. that isn't going to happen. What is inevitable though is we will suck the earth dry of ALL of it's resources and eventually turn into robots. If you disagree you are kidding yourself. Whether your printer has no ink in it is really not important when you look at the big picture!! Almost everyone is guilty of making some sort of personal gain at the expense of OUR world..
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 | Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by moe (7/11/05 10:26 PM) | + / - | Bravo! If you ever want to run for governator of California, I'll vote for you, although I do suspect you might be from the U.K. No big deal, we've got a foreigner running the state now. Now if you were a foreign actor, you'd have it made.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Stephen (edited 8/4/05 5:10 AM) | + / - | To sell the print cartridges they have to have a factory to make them, then they have to buy machines to put in the factory, then they have to hire someone to run the machines, then the person who runs the machines joins a union and wants more money and benefits, then they build another factory to make the boxes the ink cartridges go in. After they produce a bunch of cartridges and put them in little boxes they put the little boxes in bigger boxes and put them in trucks, the trucks use gas, and the drivers like to eat now and then, so they want a paycheck too. Eventually those bigger boxes get to stores, hmmm... those stores cost money to build, and their employees have that same addiction to food the truck drivers have.
Point being...
When you buy a cartridge from HP you are paying for a lot more than the ink that goes in the cartridge.
Now if we could get all those people to start walking to work, and stop eating, then the price of ink cartridges might drop...
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 | Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by moe (7/12/05 9:50 AM) | + / - | I'd prefer it go back to the way it was in the old days. Printers like the DeskJet 500. You could drop it off your desk, put it back on the desk and know it would still print. You might have to check it didn't break the floor. New printer falls off the desk, you pick up the pieces and off to the landfill. I've got a few DeskJet 500s that still work. They actually needed techs once in a while to fix it. What do you have now? Printer costs less than the ink cartridges. It breaks, into a landfill it goes. Technician has nothing to fix, can't afford the high priced gas even though he has no job to go to. Becomes homeless and a burden to society.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by TP (7/13/05 1:37 AM) | + / - | Wow, reading the post about the huge costs to run factories, pay staff, pay everybody - makes you feel sorry for the big multinationals making printer cartridges.
Sounds like a real valid reason for the high costs of replacement cartridges..
.....and then you think - hey - these guys can do research work, make dies, start up new plants, buy materials, make printers, make boxes, make everybloody thing and pay staff and shipping AND give you new cartridges for the machine AND do it for less than the price of the replacement carts, so much so that its cheaper to buy a new printer and start again each time a new carts are needed...... oh yes, thats right, they do that to mantain market share... pity they don`t make any money from them.............!!!!!!!!
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 | Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Teraforce (7/13/05 3:43 AM) | + / - | QUOTE:
moe: "I'd prefer it go back to the way it was in the old days. Printers like the DeskJet 500. You could drop it off your desk, put it back on the desk and know it would still print. You might have to check it didn't break the floor. New printer falls off the desk, you pick up the pieces and off to the landfill. I've got a few DeskJet 500s that still work. They actually needed techs once in a while to fix it. What do you have now? Printer costs less than the ink cartridges. It breaks, into a landfill it goes. Technician has nothing to fix, can't afford the high priced gas even though he has no job to go to. Becomes homeless and a burden to society."
Couldn't agree more! I have yet to come accros an inkjet with higher build quality than my old original Deskwriter (Except for maybe an old HP FAX 310 (I think that was the number) I found at Goodwill). Man is that thing ever a tank.
Now, you have printers that are so flimsy that a 2-year-old could break the plastic right off! And speaking of comsumables, I've heard of someone buying a new Lexmark printer everytime the ink carts ran dry because it was cheaper than buying a set of carts!
Unbelievable.
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| Re: Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (7/16/05 12:17 PM) | + / - | Bill gates has to get his 100 million an hr somewhere.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by moe (8/3/05 9:25 PM) | + / - | For any of you interested in joining the lawsuit, here's a link to sign up.
https://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/hp_cartridge?ref=hp_cartrid ge_overture
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by fnkylinguist (8/18/05 7:51 AM) | + / - | Everyone gets there 15 minutes of fame. I guess everyone here, except the author, is trying to get as much here as possible. Yadadadada, don't we all just want to say something important and worth while. Really! Really! Now who's stopped buying a HP printer. Really! Really! I would however like to get paid. Really? Really? I actually like poetry myself.....
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Cprossu (8/18/05 10:44 AM) | + / - | errr-
Well I for one haven't bought a new HP printer since the oj d135-
and that was a big time POS -
all my 'new' equipment now comes from thrift shops, and nothing past the 990cse for regular deskjets.
I don't buy the HP OEM toners anymore either
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| Re: Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (9/22/05 12:29 PM) | + / - | HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT,IT IS SO SAD THAT FOR A JOB YOU CAN GET A PERSON TO DO ANYTHING.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by hpwizard (9/22/05 1:02 PM) | + / - | HP are only trying to join the bandwagon, in order to compete they have thrown away reputation with their cheap range, so has Canon, lexmark etc. I advise my customers, do not spend less than £100 if you want a half decent printer! HP still do good quality printers, as do other manufacturers, it is time the consumer realised that you get what you pay for! It's not rocket science!! How come we are still servicing many machines from 10 years ago but nothing from 3 or 4 years ago?
Dazz UK
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Dsand (9/26/05 10:00 PM) | + / - | So.....pray tell, which is the best printer out there that isn't ripping you off, isn't going to break in a week, isn't going to run out of ink in a week (one I can refill with my ink more than 3 times) and has a good reputation?
I NEED A NEW PRINTER FOR MY HOME!
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Richard111 (10/5/05 4:36 AM) | + / - | I hear that if you buy a "cheaper" car, they are going to have expiry dates on the engine. The problem will be when you are in a hurry and the engine date comes around on an interstate. Still we get what we pay for!!
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (11/3/05 7:08 AM) | + / - | Unfortunately for those joining this lawsuit it will fail. Consumers have options on which products they buy. There are refill companies out there (some very good ones like Cartridge World and others that are very questionable!) that cost less than OEM cartridges. Consumers have choices...by the way for those that don't know the law, no company can void a printer warranty for using a refilled cartridge unless it can be proven fully that the cartridge actually caused the problem with the printer...
Right now HP is actually one of the best printer companies in the market. Lexmark is the worst. You will pay a lot of money for new OEM cartridges. Buy refilled, some companies actually offer a 100% guarantee on their refills. Nothing to lose.
Also for those that asked about laser printers, buy Samsung 1210 or 1740, these are very good printers and cost less than most. I have been working in the industry as both an ink and laser technician for a long time. I urge all of you to support companies like HP, Samsung and even Canon. Lexmark, Brother and some not so major players in this industry have no concern for the consumer whatsoever. I have seen their tactics first hand and have been disgusted by it. Although HP is not an angel of a company, they do support recycling efforts and have not actively been trying to shut down refilling companies. Lexmark on the other hand has filed several lawsuits against refillers and have even changed some of their newer cartridges so that they cannot be refilled...then they claim that they care about the environment.
All I can say is buy used printers, buy refilled cartridges and don't get too bent out of shape about high prices on new ink cartridges.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (11/28/05 1:02 AM) | + / - | Never buying HP products again
Cannon is 10x better at everything that they make, starting with digital cameras, all the way to printers.
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| Re: Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (12/1/05 7:04 AM) | + / - | I disagree H.P. knew what it was doing and should be held responsible for there actions with the smartchip scam. I work for a support company and I work on all officejet series with the stupidchips on them. I give H.P. credit for trying to pull off the biggest ripoff in history. Anyone who places a chip on the front of an ink cartridge that has no attachment to the interior of the cartridge and tells the consumer that this chip is monitoring the quantity of ink is not only a liar but deserves any lawsuits they get. I have removed the chip from a reported dead cartridge which only printed 65 color copies and replaced it with a new chip 6 times and ran a total of 382 copies. Thats 6 times the copies since the cartridge reported that it was empty.
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| eclass-action suit against HP by max k (12/1/05 12:57 PM) | + / - | I have to say anyone who buys an hp inkjet printer is getting ripped way before the chip issues. They just came out with the ink tank photo printer but they give you tanks that have 2ml of ink in them lol. THat would yield a wopping 25 full page pics if your lucky. Yeah sure its good quailty print but for the price and yield you could buy a canon or epson and get better results and yield. ANd the cartridges cost a fraction of the price of hp. I never liked the idea of having the printhead attached to the cartridges. ALl and all yeah every one go after hp for the chip thing i think thats great. It will hopefully make them change the way the design affordable ink jet printers and cartridges. But with out hp i would be out of job so take it easy on them lol.
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by FlaNative (edited 12/1/05 4:02 PM) | + / - | It appears this thread was started 1 year ago. I've read some posts and am curious, having recedntly purchased an HP printer (still in the box because of this thread).
Does anybody out there know the current status of this (or any) related law suite?
Does anybody know of pending case number and district of filing?
Thanks, now back to reading...
FlaNative
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by BCAT (12/2/05 4:12 AM) | + / - | Lawsuit filed in New Jersey by Sheller Ludwig & Badey, P.C. civil action #05-1455(HAA)
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| Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Lallepop (12/22/05 1:15 AM) | + / - | I agree HP needs a kick in the slats per the courts.
Local mom and pop refillers in mall claim they can pop off smart chips and replace and reset dates, counters, etc on most all carts. Anybody agree or disagree this is feasible?
Am refilling carts via Stratitec kits sold by Sam's. My problem is same as previous posting for which I see no response. How can I get rid of air in manifold on HP 14 printheads? Have great $400 officejet d145 multi-function less than 3 yrs old that is toast cause of air in blk prt hed manifold. HELP!
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| Re: Re: Re: Join the class-action suit against HP by Anonymous (12/22/05 9:53 AM) | + / - | Anybody know how to overcome HP 14 "IDS Failure" when cause is air in the manifold? See my other posting of this date. Lolly
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