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 | toner refill school by Peter Wong (4/24/04 3:42 PM) reply | + / - | Im looking for school that teach how to refill laser or copier toner cartridge. I live in santa ana, california. Anybody can help ? thank you !
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 | Re: toner refill school by jon  (4/25/04 6:19 AM) reply | + / - | I don't know of any schools that do that since there are so many different toner cartridges and methods. About the only way you could learn is on the job training. Most of the toner remanufacturers are up in the valley. Are you planning on starting your own business or just want to work for someone?
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 | Re: toner refill school by Peter Wong (4/25/04 5:55 PM) reply | + / - | thank you jon, I would like to do this as a small volum for my own business, I found that the company i used to work for spend a lot of money with buying brand new toner cartridge. And also the office next door have the same problem. How do i get the manual to do a refill ?
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| Re: toner refill school by moe  (4/26/04 12:28 PM) reply | + / - | There really aren't any manuals and no schools either. If you want training, I might be able to arrange it at our remanufacturing facility in Gardena. email me and we can discuss it. I'm not promising anything. The person who trains employees there owns a piece of the business and would have to OK it.
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| toner refill instructions, needed by djamelouis (5/13/05 2:24 PM) reply | + / - | Hi all!
I am about to start a business in selling laser toner refill kits,
but I would also like to learn along how to fulfill succefully
the refilling operation. Can anyone of you out there point me
towards a website, or a manual, wher I can find easy but compre-
hensive instructions on the refill operation for the most known
brands/models (HP, Canon, Lexmark, Epson).
Any hint is really really appreciated.
Kind regards.
Djamel.
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| Re: toner refill school by bisawest (5/23/05 7:16 AM) reply | + / - | There is more involved than just "refilling" toner, unless you want to be a "drill and fill" operation. There are other components within a toner cartridge (besides the toner) that wear out. You should do more research on this. Besides this site, you can check out Katun.com for more info.
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 | Re: toner refill school by egmoregon (5/24/05 8:17 AM) reply | + / - | As someone who owned a cartridge remanufacturing business I can tell you one thing...DON'T do it. You will always be undercut by some scumbag that runs a "drill and fill" operation under the remanufacturing umbrella. People like that gave my company a bad name even though my company NEVER had a problem remanufacturing cartridges. I got sick and tired explaining the difference to people. I personally know of three other remanufacturing companies in my area that went bankrupt in the last 18 months. Don't forget companies like HP that will always work to get non-HP cartridges out of the market. HP sends out letters to corporate customers and they highlight things like the following: "Service or repair that is required as a result of using a non-HP print cartridge is not covered under the printer warranty." To top it all off guess what? They blame everything on remanufactured cartridges. I know because I've been there.
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| Re: toner refill school by moe (5/24/05 8:51 AM) reply | + / - | egmoregon, truer words were never spoken. Amen to that. Been there, done that as well. I started back when there were only 2 cartridges. Now that's how many new ones come out every week. All of them chipped. By the time they come out with products for remanufacturing them, the model has been discontinued. If you're not one of the big players, you don't stand a chance.
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| Re: toner refill school by Rapid Refill Ink (5/24/05 2:36 PM) reply | + / - | To egmoregon. Have you ever heard of the Sherman/Clayton anti-trust laws? They cover all remanufacturers under this law. Do a search on it. As for starting a toner refilling company, be prepared for alot of training. Not only do you need to know the operation of the printers, it helps majorly to know, but also the operation and what functions each component serves. What does the drum do, pcr, wiper blade, dr blade, mag roller, corona wire, etc. Its not impossible, but difficult to learn. I would find a toner company and work for them until you learn how to do it, then make your decision to start your own business.
Good Luck!
Brent - Rapid Refill Ink
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| Re: toner refill school by egmoregon (5/24/05 3:30 PM) reply | + / - | I am fully aware the Sherman/Clayton act. BUT and this is a BIG BUT, companies don't want to deal with it. This is what I mean: Company "A" buys printers from HP and then choose to use toner cartridge that was not remanufactured properly. The cartridge fails and leaves a crap load of toner in the printer, all over the gears, etc..etc... Company "A" is not going to argue with HP, trust me I've been in that situation. My company supplied several school districts in Oregon, the district then decided to save a couple of bucks and go with a scumbag who told them that his cartridges (drilled and filled) are of equal quality to HP cartridges. Many cartridges failed and he bailed on them and would not return calls etc..etc..... They (the school district or company "A") do not want to deal with lawsuits, court cases and the cost included. I've been there done that. I told them that they can take HP to court but they just did not want to deal with it.
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| Re: toner refill school by moe (5/24/05 4:58 PM) reply | + / - | We used to take care of a large law firm. We supplied cartridges and service. We noticed they weren't buying cartridges from us, so we inquired as to what happened. They had switched to a company called CSI. In the industry, we call them "Crap Sold Intentionally". They didn't do the cartridges themselves but bought them from a low end refiller. So one person in the lawfirm dealt with cartridges, the other service. I explained to the people in charge of service that they could expect a lot more service calls. Not long afterwards, fuser assemblies started failing right and left. I got called in for very light copies and told them it was the cartridge. I hunted around the office, found one of our old ones that was in a lightly used printer and swapped them. Night and Day. We got the cartridge account back soon afterwards.
We had another account where we supplied the cartridges and this other company did service. Want to know how to tell an incompetent service company? They put stickers over the case screws. Another giveaway is if they have some medical term in their name like Laser doctor, etc. So they had an HP IIID that was throwing a 51 error. Coincidentally some toner had leaked out of one of our cartridges, which we replaced. They told the customer that our cartridges caused the error and we were gone. Strange part is that new cartridges and these incompetent morons couldn't fix the printer. So they called me. I told them I would come over and fix the printer in less than 10 minutes, using no parts. But...they had to get rid of the incompetent service company and give me cartridges and service. I don't have to tell you the result.
I lost a newspaper account once, same kind of deal. Print not fusing on a laserjet II. No part repair. I had started fixing it when they told me it was under contract. I closed it up (big mistake), the incompetent company couldn't fix it, blamed my cartridges and I was gone. Never got it back either. Sun computers, they went broke a few years later. Wonder why?
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| Re: toner refill school by egmoregon (5/24/05 7:07 PM) reply | + / - | I would like to add something to my story. The drill and fill guy had a business name that anyone can register for at your city hall, he also used a cell phone as a contact number and a p.o box for all correspondence. When the s%$t hit the fan this guy just disappeared, phone got disconnected (I assume it was one of those pre-paid phones) his address changed, and his business license was not renewed the year after. These operations happen all over the country and not just in my little town of Portland, Oregon. They give companies like mine and moes a bad name and it screwed my business up. Hell, most of the time I was running around trying to explain to people the difference between a remanufactured cartridge and a refilled one. If I had the time and money I would hunt down all those S.O.B.'s and clean up this business.
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| Re: toner refill school by Rapid Refill Ink (5/25/05 3:47 PM) reply | + / - | EG,
I feel for you, and everyone else that has had a bad experience with a "fill & drill" company. Rapid Refill Ink, specializes in making a quality product that anyone would be happy to use. We are a franchise company, I have stores opening up all over the US. The reason for our success is a proven track record. I've been rebuilding toner since 89, servicing machines since 97. We made sure that the people we have hired could be trained the Rapid Refill way. We went from one store here in Eugene, OR to over 50 stores nationwide. I know where you are coming from, its frustrating, but with the right marketing, technicians, etc, you can make any business in this industry work if you get the right people. Anyway, sorry about the rambling, GOOD LUCK!
Brent - RRI
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| Re: toner refill school by djamelouis (5/26/05 3:44 PM) reply | + / - | Thank you so much Brent for your encouraging words. And I suppose you are talking out of long and hard experience. I know that any business will bring some difficulties in the beginning, and experience is a hard teacher, it gives first the taste, and then the lesson. But wasn t one of America\s foremost inventors who said that genius is 1% inspiration, and 99% perspiration?
I still have a small comment to the toner refilling procedure, I think have read many times that one shouldn t drill in the plastic cartridge, this could leave plastic shavings inside the toner container which in turn may scratch and deteriorate the OPC roll gelatinous cover. In any case I used for my first toner cartridge filling today a soldering iron with which I melted a hole, and then filled with toner (which I purchased in China). The printer couldn t spit out prettier printouts. I got very happy, and I decided to fill more and other models. I always give garantee to my customers, satisfied or reimbursed. Otherwise how can remanufactured toner cartridges be so popular. It is only to work carefully and learn from ohers experiences. One doesn t have enoug time to commit all the mistakes others have already made.
Thanks to all others for contributing to this interesting thread of discussion.
Djamel.
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| Re: toner refill school by moe (5/26/05 4:40 PM) reply | + / - | I'm sure that egmoregon, Brent and all the other serious cartridge remanufacturers will be happy to know that there is another drill and filler putting out "questionable" cartridges. What you're doing is already being done at tonerrefillkits.com They sell cheap Chinese toner for $20+ a bottle and 99 cent soldering irons for $20 as well. Sad thing is the consumer can't tell the drill and fill cartridges from the quality remanufactured ones. So what happens is every remanufactured cartridge is labeled "crap" and people will only buy OEMs. It's too bad you're ignoring the good advice and going for the fast buck.
There's a video you should see that shows how the Chinese bottle the toner you're buying. Little kids busting open empty cartridges and pouring the waste toner and leftover toner into bottles. It's all universal toner. Of course they probably put labels on saying they are specific to certain models. We all watched it in horror. Somewhere, there is a kid with lung problems who filled that bottle you bought with extremely questionable toner.
Why do we provide this advice to people who aren't interested?
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| Re: toner refill school by Nat Miller (5/26/05 9:50 PM) reply | + / - | Type Oasis Imaging in your web search engine. It is worth your time and effort to see the correct process. The reason this industry has a "poor rep" is because of the "drill and fill" and toner-phoners. I have been in the "biz" since 1990. I started by reloading printer ribbon nylon (for Ralph's and Savon) into ribbon cartridges. Even then we had to purchase a ribbon loading machine. If you're ever going to last in this industry, learn how to do it right!!. The numbers are something like; "100 people start in this business and 96 are gone in three months". I still do cartridges on a small scale and do mostly service now. The basis for laser printer repair starts by learning about the image formation process (toner cartridge). I've been able to diversify my business enough to cope with the industry changes. If anyone is interested in learning more about cartridge remanufacturing, printer repair or fuser rebuilding, I've trained several large and small cartridge remaunfacturing techs for a couple of years now. My contact information: Nat Miller, All Office Equipment, Fullerton CA 92835 Phone 714-588-2091.
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| Re: toner refill school by moe (5/26/05 10:07 PM) reply | + / - | Nat, the original poster isn't interested in doing it the right way, he just wants to make a quick buck. BTW, one of those toner phoners made the big mistake of calling me once. Tried to sell me a 74A which did 10,000 copies for only $129 (ROTFLMAO). I'll never forget what they said when I asked how they got that many copies "we don't mix our toners with water or alcohol, we have a special process". I really had to suppress the laughter. Got enough info to file a complaint with the Federales. A few months later I was at the forced auction of the company. I wouldn't buy any of their crappy toner, I was after the printers. This guy standing next to me kept bidding more than I thought they were worth. Engaged him in conversation and he turned out to be the owner. "2 million phone calls a year and 6 only lousy complaints to the FTC shut me down". I didn't have the heart to tell him I was the 6th complaint. It's just too bad you can't do that with all the incompetents putting out crap cartridges and giving everyone a black eye. Tried my damndest to put Laser Network (you've probably heard of them since you're in CA) out of business as well, but no luck. I kept pushing some of their victims to file a report, but no one cared. The scum even scammed an atty. who I did some work for and they didn't want to be bothered. That's why these people operate so freely, everybody is waiting for someone else to do something about them.
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| Re: toner refill school by Cprossu (5/26/05 11:16 PM) reply | + / - | omg-a 74A doing 10,000 copies? of what? blank pages?! =D
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| Re: toner refill school by bisawest (5/27/05 7:12 AM) reply | + / - | It really is sad. There are good companies out there that "REMANUFACTURE" the toners, replacing the drums and other worn-out components, and this guy just melts a whole in it and calls it good. What happens if his toner leaks out all over the machine? Here's a "new" toner?!?! He will damage someone's printer for sure.
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| Re: toner refill school by Nat Miller (5/27/05 7:14 AM) reply | + / - | Maybe in a million years a 74A will do 10,000 print outs.....
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| Re: toner refill school by egmoregon (5/27/05 11:58 AM) reply | + / - | TO Djamel.
Melting a hole in a cartridge is not equal to remanufacturing, it's not even close. Every time I read this crap my blood pressure explodes, I'm gonna go take my meds now. Thanks alot .
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| Re: toner refill school by djamelouis (5/27/05 1:59 PM) reply | + / - | I know you can t repeat the process forever. But you can refill the same cartridge at least three times Ive heard. I haven t tried it yet, but it seems quite plausible. But in fact I am planning to start a small remanufacturing plant. There are descriptions on how to disassemble the cartridge, you can buy the spare parts from China, the OPC drum costs around 5 bucks, and that s it. About Chinese products there s nothing, absolutely nothing to complain about. Here in Europe the ink and toner cartridges remanufactured in China are invading the market and the big companies making printers can t hold the race. This is a sad fact f0r some, but a rescue for the low income consumer. Well, of course nothing can imitate the original stuff, but who can make the difference between 100% and 95% in a toner printout. I was in Germany last month, and you find plenty of such ink and toner filling stations. In a medium size city I counted 1 shop per 8.000 people, and everybody seems satisfied as this business has been going on for several years now. About small kids pouring out toner from cartridges without any protection of any sort, it is in fact a very alarming and serious thing. It s about the same thing happening in the carpet industry: small kids in Pakistan and India fastened with chains at the ankle knitting several hours a day for I don t know how little money. Some of them don t even get any penny, by that slavery they pay loans taken by their parents and who can t make mortgages. It is awful, indeed, but I think no one cares much when he/she enters a carpet shop. I suppose everybody heard the latest about imposing tough measures on the import of Chinese textiles. Shall we now discredit even the Chinese textile with its several thousand year tradition? I think these are problems to be dealt with by governments.
Nice week end to everybody!
Djamel.
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| Re: Re: toner refill school by djamelouis (5/27/05 2:15 PM) reply | + / - | BTW I am definitely determined in starting my business. Where it will end I don\t know, but I will make my best to make roll smooth and painless. Maybe along the journey I will bump on people like Brent, who at least will send eher and then positive comments. I am a scientist in education, and it will be a big plus for me. I ahve some knowledge in physics, technology and chemistry, and it will be favourable. Another thing is that I haven\t yet invested a lot in the toner case, and people working a lot with laser printers are looking for cheaper alternatives than the original brand. Imagine that you can buy toner powder for 10 dollars kg (the biggest cartridge takes about half that amount), when the cartridge costs at least ten times more.
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| Re: toner refill school by Wes (5/27/05 4:15 PM) reply | + / - | Here's my two cents on the whole remanufacturing issue. On most of the newer HP cartridges you will need to replace the PCR right off the bat. We had a lot of 50 10A's and had to change every PCR. The older cartridges aren't that bad. Once your business gets going avoid selling to SWL. He is a price grinder and will want to to drop ship everything and if there is a bad cart he wants you to pay return shipping. The company I work for deals with tham and we run on a very low profit margin.
Once you factor in all the free shipping everyone wants your profit really goes down. So make sure you yau give very clear info on your pricing and return policy.
Get the best empites you can find - a good empty is easier to remanufacture than a poorly remanufactured empty. Once you get going and work on a Guy Brown or Rhinotek cartridge you will see what I mean.
As far as actual remanufacturing goes, watching a person do a few cartridges is the best way to learn. But the guides provided on this site will really be a big help. Most of the guides do not show how to install the seals. But most small companies don't realy need to seal the cartridges. It's just reduces returns from a little spilled toner and the seals do make for a more professional looking product. And lastly try to make the best product you can make, Then try to make that product even better.
Wes.
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 | Re: toner refill school by moe (5/27/05 5:04 PM) reply | + / - | Wes, you came into this conversation a bit late and didn't read the whole thing. I'll synopsize it for you. Guy is in Europe so he doesn't know the companies you've mentioned. He doesn't give a damn about quality or taking the cartridges apart. He's been led to believe you can do any cartridge 3 times without worrying about failing wiper blades or other components. Of course the waste bins will hold all the waste toner from 3 cycles without overflowing, and if he has to he can use the cheap $5 Chinese drum to go along with the cheap $10 a kilo all purpose Chinese toner, filled by Chinese kids with lung disease. Then he's going to poke a hole in it with a cheap Chinese soldering iron and fill it and seal it. Of course with that kind of quality, he's going to give it an unconditional guarantee. With luck, he'll be out of business in 3 months.
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| Re: toner refill school by Stephen (5/27/05 5:50 PM) reply | + / - | A note about HP blaming problems on refilled cartridges, and a simple solution.
I recommend to my customers, specifically to their support staff, that they have one HP OEM cartridge on hand for each type of HP printer they use, then if they have a problem with a printer I recommend they install the HP cartridge and test the machine, if the machine works, then leave the HP cartridge in it and order a replacement for the refilled cartridge, and a new HP cartridge to replace the one they just installed.
If the machine is still having problems, then leave the OEM toner installed and call for service, and get another new sealed cartridge for the next time.
The service person will then not be able to blame the problem on the cartridge, and when they buy a fresh cartridge each time this happens they wont have to worry about leaving an open cartride on the shelf.
I make less money this way, and HP will sell a few more cartridges, the customer will usually come out ahead in the long run when you look at the price of a service call versus the price of an OEM cartridge.
BTW I only sell cartridges by special order, so I don't get anything other than a warm feeling from recommending that the customer have OEM cartridges on hand.
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 | Re: toner refill school by djamelouis (5/28/05 1:47 PM) reply | + / - | A question crossed my mind. Is it allowed in USA to import "cheap" compatible bulk toner powder and bulk ink from China ?
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| Re: toner refill school by pcrmike (5/28/05 9:42 PM) reply | + / - | Take it from an old pro. I have been in the REMANUFACTURING, not refill business for about 10 years now, and have seen a lot of changes. The days of plug and dump the HP II are long gone. The refill industry is CRAP. The only way I can sleep at night is to know that I put out a VERY high quality product at a low price, by using new parts where needed (or simply should). I have done R&D for years, and have several items that have been patented and are on the market now. I do carts that nobody else can, because I learned the whole product, industry, and made friends in high places of the recharging industry. It is refill and El Cheapo toner companies that give me the best business, because if a customer finds some scumbag that sells them a HP4000 toner for 39 bucks, (actually had this happen this week) that was with a new drum, the toner cart developed a line, (they reused the blade) and they bought another one from the same place, and the solids were not very good. I weighed it for them on my scale, and found 400g of toner in it instead of the 500g in a normal HY reman. I brought out one of my 79 dollar "MegaLife" toners with 700g in a custom molded hopper, weighed it to show them, then stuck it in and ran off test prints with nearly perfect solids and grayscales. I also warranted to them that "Until it ran out of toner it would work as good as new, or it is replaced free of charge". Unless you are willing to do it right, with a high-quality product, and provide personal service to your customers, then don't even think it. If you build a good rapport with your customers, and focus on service of the customer instead of selling them something, then you will be unstoppable. We regularly get customers away from much larger companies based on the fact that we take a little extra time and effort to make sure the customer is in fact satisfied. We go out of our way to fix their problems. That is why we have such a low turnover rate. If you want to learn it the right way, and do the customers right, you may call or email me, and I will help. If you are out to make a quick buck or if I get that vibe from you, forget it. :-) PCRMike
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| Re: toner refill school by djamelouis (5/30/05 10:57 AM) reply | + / - | I feel this business of toner filling is tough, and I am about to give it up. But if anyone has any info worth knowing, please send me an e-mail in private at: realiste_dz@yahoo.co.uk
Thanx a lot for all your time.
Djamel
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| Re: toner refill school by egmoregon (5/31/05 7:29 AM) reply | + / - | To Stephen. I have a funny story about a customer who tried to pull a fast one on me. Quick background, I'm a technician at a local school district in Oregon. I received an HP 4000N with what I would estimate to be 150-200 grams of toner spilled inside the printer and stuck all over the gears. I noticed that they had installed a genuine HP cartridge but it was clearly not the offending cartridge. The cartridge was clean and when I took it apart I could clearly tell that it did not leak. To make a long story short, I repaired the printer and sent it back to the school with a nice bill and told them never to try that crap again.
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| Re: toner refill school by Stephen (5/31/05 7:40 AM) reply | + / - | If the toner has spilled there's not much to do but clean it up.
Most of the time I see problems with refills it is image quality or a repetitive defect.
Replacing the cartridge works if that is the problem.
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| Re: toner refill school by egmoregon (5/31/05 8:11 AM) reply | + / - | Djamel, Here is the problem with “drill/fill” or “melt/fill” operations: In my experience most people who run those businesses care about nothing more than the bottom line $$$$$$$$. The truth is that you need to three things, 1- Be familiar with the printers you’re selling supplies for. 2- Make a good product. If you have a “drill/fill” or “melt/fill” operation then you are NOT making a good product (I’ll explain in a minute). 3- Customer service (self explanatory). You might be thinking that I did not mention money or the bottom line, but in my opinion money will come if you do the items listed above. Now in regards to “drill/fill” operations: cartridges degrade and they need to be maintained on a regular basis, some parts need to be replaced and blades and seals need to be kept in good condition. Furthermore, the quality of supplies/parts used in maintaining these cartridges is crucial, use low quality crap and that’s exactly what you get on the other end.
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| Re: toner refill school by Anonymous (7/4/05 12:43 PM) reply | + / - | Thanks for all your contributions.
In any case I have got plenty of messages to my private e-mail
where people encouraged me to go ahead with the business. But
now I have decided to start only by selling toner refill kits.
So the buyer can do what he likes with the toner, and I skip
problems of complaints. At the same time I will make a lot of
experiments on filling and remanufacturing. The spare parts are
at nearly no cost in China and Korea, and the manuals are out
there on the Internet for showing refiling details. I know now
some people will start to say things about chinese cartridge
spare parts. Let us see what they come up with.
Have great sumer times!
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 | Re: toner refill school by moe (7/4/05 1:19 PM) reply | + / - | I'm going to encourage you as well. You are now ready to screw the public. Next step is to open up a store on pirateBay. Sell it cheap and you'll have no end of stupid people buying the kits. If you send it out real quick, you'll get a positive review. That's all the eBayers care about, getting the crap they ordered quickly. Make sure you email them right away when the sale is complete. That's all it takes. It will take a while before you get a bunch of negatives. Then you just change the name and start over again. You will be totally anonymous and won't have to worry about anyone coming after you for selling crappy product. You seem to be a perfect pirateBayer as you don't have a conscience to get in the way of making money and won't have trouble sleeping at night.
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 | Re: toner refill school by pcrmike (7/4/05 3:39 PM) reply | + / - | I am with Moe on that! I am a recharger that does top-notch quality remanufactures, and as such I constantly run into people who take crap from ebay that ends up messing up the printers. You sound like a hack that doesn't care a rat's ankle about the customer or their equipment, and as such about your character. Just make sure I get your new company name so I never buy there. >:-( PCRMike
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| Re: toner refill school by Anonymous (7/5/05 4:06 AM) reply | -1 + / - | I have the feeling that moe and pcrmike are working for hp.
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| Re: toner refill school by pcrmike (7/5/05 4:26 AM) reply | + / - | Ha ha. I do mostly Samsung, not HP, but am very proficient at any cartridge, as I also instruct small rechargers on the CORRECT way to REMANUFACTURE a cartridge. I became known as PCRMike due to some of my inventions for which I sold the patents, and some other tools for which I hold the patents. You are correct woodss, that we do not need to encourage this type of drill and fill. There are a lot of reputable places to get the REMANUFACTURING instructions out there, just do it right and save your rep. :-) PCRMike
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| Re: toner refill school by Stephen (7/5/05 6:12 AM) reply | + / - | ROTFLOL!!!
Moe working for HP?
He didn't recommend buying HP cartridges, he sells remanufactured cartridges!
What he is against is poor quality work and refilled cartridges, that is showing a lot of decency on his part, because I'm rather certain he's made lots of money due to people buying "drill and fill" operation products.
Dear Gutless, er... Anonymous,
You may have put up your comment in jest, but you should have used your name.
Stephen
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| Re: toner refill school by pcrmike (7/5/05 6:29 AM) reply | + / - | He shoots, he scores! The crowd goes wild! AHHHHHHHH! Good point, Stephen. That's exactly it. I am also against something that I percieve to be an attempt to screw over the same kind of people I am trying to serve. :-) PCRMike
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| Re: toner refill school by oddwizzard (7/5/05 11:01 AM) reply | + / - | thanks to everyone who contributed to the Quality side of this discussion and thanks for nothing, but the warning about the low standards of the fly by night boys out there ruining another industry with cheap/crap chinese,korean,malaysian,indnesian....imports.(no this isn't intended to be a racial villification or slur, just a lack of patience with all products on offer being imported from the lowest possible priced source no matter what the result)
here in rural Australia no body wants to provide service or support for anything but very recent or the current models on sale, so in the search for information on self-sufficiency in the printer consumables idea I came across this thread and see so much that is familliar to other industries. It is truly wonderful what irresponsible entrepreneurs will do to us all for a quick buck!!!!!
THANKS AGAIN TO THOSE OUT-THERE STILL STRIVING TO PROVIDE QUALITY SERVICE AND WORKMANSHIP.
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| Re: toner refill school by pcrmike (7/5/05 5:59 PM) reply | + / - | Is it "Q"? I love them. Their quality isn't QUITE there as good as the OEM or a really good reman, but it is still quite good, and a great value. I sell their E50 like hotcakes! :-) PCRMike (for as good as it is, it is cheaper for me to do it-about 5% failure) The rate isn't as good as mine, but better than OEM on that particular cart model.
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| Re: toner refill school by stove (8/20/05 1:06 AM) reply | + / - | Does anyone have comments for against Samsung 510N's? Iended up supporting 17 of them at a new client I've picked up. I've not found a whole lot of these printers online, and they are all networked, and the cheapest comparable market is the HP and they don't include network interfaces.
Anyhow. I need references on where is a good place to pick up toner for these printers. I saw one link earlier up but I don't know if it's still valid.
Anyway, one of the users at this site tried to load up two printers with photo-quality inkjet printer, ANyway the 'wax coating' on the paper pelled off and wound up around the fuser roller. Is it possible to remove this and clean this up without too much damage? I feared there would be a lot of toner everywhere but I didn't see a whole lot. There's a bit of toner dust floating around, the only solution for that is to vaccum that up?
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| Re: toner refill school by pcrmike (8/22/05 5:47 AM) reply | + / - | The 510 has a chip to prevent recyclng, but I am trying to get a chip for them this week. I will post my findings. As for the toner peel, lie to the printer in the control panel of the computer, under properties and tell it that the paper is "thick" and feed it only from the MP tray. I would not run any inkjet photo paper thru it, but for anything but plain paper, tell it this, and you are golden. :-) PCRMike
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| alternatives by newmike (9/27/05 8:43 PM) reply | + / - | moe or pcrmike:
I found this thread quite instructive. I now have a sense of how one reman company could be any different than another. I was just about to place an order for a couple kits from tonerrefillkits.com. Glad to know that it would be a shoddy job that benefits a shoddy company and an even shoddier Chinese sweatshop.
Do you have any recommendations for a reputable business in your field that can supply a remanufactured cartridge for the Samsung ML-1710?
I sympathize with your plight in having cheap hacks cannibalize your business and give the trade a bad name. Keep up the good fight...
Thank you
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| Re: toner refill school by Phil S (9/28/05 5:15 AM) reply | + / - | newmike,
I think you found the right man for your Samsung ML-1710.
PCRmike does a LOT of Samusungs! One of his specialty areas!
Regards,
Phil S
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| Re: toner refill school by pcrmike (9/28/05 5:35 AM) reply | + / - | Aww, shucks, Phil. I just want to see customers done right. Yes, newmike, I remanufacture ML-1710's to last longer than any others available on the market, and on top of that, they are 70% new components. Literally, the only recycled part is the lower frame and gears. We go for 5-6K yield, and the ability to fit Samsung, Xerox, Lexmark and others. Email me for pricing. And thanks again guys. :-) PCRmike
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 | Burn and Fill by moe (12/24/05 12:15 PM) reply | + / - | Around 15 years ago, toner cartridge refillers were afraid to open up the toner cartridges. They knew little about electrophotography and had a very limited range of supplies. They would drill a hole in the toner hopper, pour in the replacement toner and install a plug in the hole. As you can imagine, this practice led to a very high rate of cartridge failures. And so, drill-and-fill became synonymous with bad quality.
Drill-and-Fill...
The OEMS rightly turned their noses up at drill-and-fill. Drill-and-fillers were never considered remanufacturers. The OEMS like to talk about drill-and-fill as if this technique is a part of the remanufacturing industry. They have done a good job of keeping that myth alive. It is negative advertising at its best. However, there still exist a small number of companies that sell toner refill kits, mostly over the Internet, to unsuspecting customers.
...Becomes Burn-and-Fill
These companies have gone from drill-and-fill to burn-and-fill. They supply a customer with bottles of toner and a hole-making device, which is a modified soldering iron. The soldering iron has a cup at its end which heats up to about 800 degrees fahrenheit. This is used to burn a hole in the toner hopper plastic. The toner hopper plastic generally is made from a plastic called ABS.
Hazards of Burning ABS Plastic
Heating ABS to such high temperatures causes the ABS to degrade and give off some poisonous, and potentially carcinogenic, chemicals.
The following is from a material safety data sheet (MSDS) for ABS:
"CONDITIONS TO AVOID: Do not exceed 550 degrees Fahrenheit. Precautions should be taken against auto-ignition of hot, thick masses of the plastic. Quench in water. Grinder dust is an explosion hazard.
HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITION PRODUCTS: Styrene monomer, ammonia, hydrogen cyanide, acrylamide, aromatic and aliphatic hydrocarbon fractions, and carbon monoxide may be present. Carbon dioxide, an asphyxiant, is also produced.
"HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS...These materials are high-molecular-weight polymers not expected to be chemically active under recommended conditions of use. Trace amounts of residual monomers, including acrylonitrile and styrene, suspected carcinogens, are present and may be released under suggested processing temperature range."
What this means is that these burn-and-fill companies are recommending a procedure that is a potential health and safety hazard.
The Myth of "Universal Toner"
There are some burn-and-fill companies that sell a "universal toner." This toner allegedly is good for use in virtually every printer HP makes and many other OEM printer toner cartridges. Of course, a universal toner is utter nonsense. Using one toner in all of those printers will result in fuser offset, low yield and other print problems. In addition, it is apparent that most of these burn-and-fill companies use a bottle fill size of between 180 grams and 250 grams of toner. Yet, these companies also list cartridge compatability with toner cartridges such as WX and 8100. The yield will come up very short in most cartridges.
One Internet burn-and-fill company sells universal toner kits. For example, one of its toner refill kits, which sells for $29.99, is-according to the company-good for hundreds of different printers.
Another burn-and-fill company offers one 250 gram bottle with its universal toner refill kit and it also states that there are up to two refills with the one kit. However a 250 gram bottle will not fill up most of the toner cartridges they list, let alone carry the cartridge for two full cycles.
It also may come as a surprise to see that Sam's Club, the superstore chain, was ofering burn-and-fill universal toner refill kits. The product description is listed below:
Model: 25400-7
This Toner Refill KIt refills toner cartridges for all Hewlett-Packard and Canon laser printers, photocopiers, and toner-based fax machines (up to two refills, based on cartridge size).
Wild Guarantees
The guarantees made by providers of these refill kits are incredible. If you type "toner refill kits" into an Internet search engine, there will appear a list of the burn-and-fill companies.
Here is part of one such company's 100 percent guarantee:
"There are only two requests we make: First, please don't ask for a refund on a product that didn't revitalize an obviously defective cartridge. Our guarantee covers the performance of our products completely, but we cannot cover the failure of our product to perform miracles.
"Just so there is no misunderstanding, here is exactly what we are referring to: If you decided to retire your curent cartridge prematurely becuase of spots, dots, lines, voids or other defects on the printout, then the cartridge WAS BROKEN/BAD and our kits can't revive the dead (but our "expensive" replacement cartridge CAN! It is designed to replace a broken or defective cartridge)."
Another toner refill kit company has a most interesting guarantee:
"Our toner is warranted to be free from defect and to be 100% compatible with the cartridge for which it is intended."
A little further down the web page is this disclaimer:
"Disclaimer
(We) make no guarantee, either expressed or implied, with respect to the degree of success any user will achieve from the use of the products or services we sell or the information we provide. Furthermore, (we) accept no fault or responsibility for any result obtained from the use of the products or services we sell or the information we provide."
From a Burn-and-Fill Website
The following comes directly from a burn-and-fill website. They are trying to make like they are looking out for your best interests by telling you to only use 1/3 of a bottle at a time. The real reason is that they are expecting a failure before the full cycle, while in another part of the site claiming an average of 3 refills per cartridge. Since you now perceive them as honest (not sharks), they then can sell you a very expensive "virgin" empty cartridge.
Q6: Why do the ReChargX instructions recommend initially dispensing only one-third to one-half of the ReChargX bottle of toner into my empty cartridge instead of the whole bottle?
A6: To save you money so you can make the most cost-effective use of your ReChargX purchase. (If we were "sharks" we wouldn't tell you this - we're not sharks, we want you to save as much money as possible, so read on!) No matter what type of cartridge you use, if your cartridge has never been refilled before (meaning it is just now showing the toner low message for the first time), the chances of it going through one complete additional use are almost 100%.
But, even if the chances are nearly 100% that your cartridge should go through the next full cycle, by dispensing only one-third to one-half of the bottle of toner into the empty cartridge, you are making certain you are going to waste very little, if any, of the inexpensive (read that as inexpensive for them to buy, I can buy a case for what they sell it to you for) ReChargX toner in the unlikely event your empty cartridge "poops" out prematurely.
Obviously, no matter what type of cartridge you use, the likelihood the cartridge is going to "poop out", increases, the more times you refill it. So, the "insurance" you are buying by using only one-third to one-half of the bottle on any given refill becomes more valuable as your cartridge gets older.
(As we like to say, "There is no prize awarded" for completely filling the cartridge during any refilling session. Take it slow, be conservative, use only 1/3 - 1/2 of the bottle of toner during any refilling session and you will save even more money as time goes on. We want you to come back as a "die-hard" ReChargX fan (as all of our satisfied customers do!). And, once you try ReChargX and see for yourself how simple the refill procedure is and how well it works, we know you will be back as long as you own a toner-based printer.)
Avoiding a Black Eye" Consumer Education
These burn-and-fill companies are promoting a potentially hazardous procedure that is technically incorrect because it fails to recognize component wear and full waste bins. It also is apparent that the OEMs try to lump the remanufacturing industry in with those that burn-and-fill. This is to the detriment of all of the legitimate remanufacturing companies. Drill-and-fill is long over, but burn-and-fill still exists as a separate group of companies that are not representative of remanufacturing companies.
Quality remanufacturers disassemble, clean, inspect, and replace toner and worn components from toner cartridges. They install new drums and drum wiper blades. Efforts are made to make sure that the remanufactured cartridge performance is equal to OEM cartridge performance. It is important that consumers understand what risks they are taking by exposing themselves to potentially harmful chemicals and also possibly damaging their printers.
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| Re: toner refill school by pcrmike (12/26/05 10:05 AM) reply | + / - | Moe is 100% right. The guarantees they put out are bunk. Mine goes like this, as people want to buy kits from me, but I won't sell them. Mine goes like this. "If my cartridges fail for any reason at all during the specified life cycle (equal to OEM high yield) it will be replaced at no charge, period." Many of the toners I build are for applications such as the HP1200 which has a high yield variant that is the 15X and is rated (by HP) for 4K pages. Mine is the same basic cartridge with a much larger toner hopper and long life components that can go to 8K or more. My guarantee specifies that it is 100% guaranteed til it passes the 4K mark. After this, we will still replace it if a part actually fails. But we mean even if it runs out of toner before 4K, it gets replaced. Compare this with any other reman operation out there. BTW--I agree with Moe, there are a lot of hacks out there. I deal with people everyday who have been burned. If you see a kit, it is likely not worth your time and risk of damage to the printer. :-) PCRMike
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| Re: toner refill school by beez (6/27/06 9:53 AM) reply | + / - | Can anyone tell me where to buy quality toner powder by the kgs?
All the websites I've visited only sell by the bottles.
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| Re: toner refill school by Anonymous (6/27/06 11:55 AM) reply | + / - | Try www.futuregraphicsllc.com
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| Re: toner refill school by pcrmike (6/28/06 12:04 PM) reply | + / - | First, which continent are you on, sir? :-) PCRMike
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| Re: toner refill school (now: spotting rmfg cart.) by NJ (9/7/06 3:13 PM) reply | + / - | A bit of a change of topic. Is there any way to spot a remanufactured cartridge from a brand new one? I am hopping there is a telltale sign or two. Thanks
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| Re: toner refill school by pcrmike (11/21/06 7:43 AM) reply | + / - | NJ, there are several ways to tell, all differ with the model, but as a general rule, you can tell with Canon and HP carts by the drum. The shutter slides back, revealing the drum. On OEM carts, the drum has an opaque, or "milky" color to the coating, whether gray, blue, purple or whatever, while an aftermarket drum has a translucent or "see thru" coating of whatever color. :-)PCRMike
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| Re: toner refill school by Anonymous (3/24/08 6:10 PM) reply | + / - | refill companys are the bigest head ach to service technicians, in a week we get about 5 laser printers in all with fualty cartridge world toners in them change the toner with a genuine one and wot do u no it starts printing perfect again. dont get me started on inkjet m/c, 9/10 inkjets we get in the workshop have non-genuine inks in them and all relate to printhead issues, coincidence i think not!. generally the 10th machine has a issue like not paper feeding but the other nine are stuffed cos they neeed a new head.
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| Re: Re: toner refill school by Anonymous (6/25/08 6:47 AM) reply | + / - | don't let these guys fool you. SCC-INC has remanufacturing instructions available along with some of the other chip remanufacturers. SCC requires you to get a log in.password but you can get that if you call them. You can always refine their instructions later.
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| Re: toner refill school by clambo (9/6/08 9:55 AM) reply | + / - | I am a printer service tech. Of course we see a lot of problems due to refilled cartridges- we don't see printers that don't have failures. We don't see the good remanufactured ones, we only see the bad ones. And without knowing the players, we only know "new" or "used".
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| Re: toner refill school by kuby (edited 10/11/08 5:12 PM) reply | + / - | We reman cartridges and see new ones fail at the same rate as ours, which is pretty good. Customers think just because they are using OEM, then the problem can not be the cartridge, OEM catridges fail too, right out of the box. If you completely reman the cartridges and know when they have been remaned enough times and throw they away, you should be OK.
If you want someone to help you then, you need to provide a way to contact you. They can not get ahold of you when you post using Anonymous.
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| Re: toner refill school by rmkddk (10/23/08 8:12 AM) reply | + / - | I have used this site many times to repair my Minolta magicolor 2200. I am trying to squeeze every bit of life out it that I can. My toner cartridges are leaking and I want to try to reburbish them myself before I trash it (not worth the cost to get new toner cartridges). I downloaded the instructions from this site. I have not tried to work on them yet but have read the instructions. Does anyone know where to buy the parts for repair if I need them (such as the sealing foam)? Thanks!
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| Re: toner refill school by moe (10/23/08 11:48 AM) reply | + / - | There are lots of suppliers like scc-inc.com, Oasis Imaging, etc. Problem is that most don't sell to end users.
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| Re: toner refill school by Anonymous (11/17/09 4:10 PM) reply | + / - | bump
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| Re: Re: toner refill school by moe (11/17/09 5:38 PM) reply | + / - | What are you bumping? Question was answered.
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| Re: toner refill school by rohmell (11/18/09 5:36 PM) reply | + / - | I guess they feel that the answer is unsatisfactory?
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| Re: toner refill school by Scytex (11/19/09 12:38 PM) reply | + / - | Agree with Moe and Pcr mike on this issue
We also started remanufacturing cartridges
back when printers like the Apple laserwriter
and Hp laserjet 2 were the popular printers
From a experienced,professional standpoint there is no
substitution for a quality remanufactured laser cartridge backed with a warranty.Almost thirty years later we are still remanufacturing some and outsourcing the rest from companies that stand behind thier product and have sound business practices.
You can spot the cheap low buck ctg by the noise or lousy print quality or the toner dumping inside the printer.
You get what you pay for still means something.
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| Re: Re: toner refill school by Devon (3/9/10 4:27 AM) reply | + / - | I agree with you pcrmike. This business is not easy to get right. I own a refill and rechip business in the UK. Anyone can get hold of a cheap refill service. The only difference between me and any other refillers is the quality and customer satisfaction. If you can do a good job you will retain your customers. Your customers will make or break you. Never forget this. They are the most powerful part of your business. Treat them special and they will come back.
I think you have said it all when you said "...focus on service of the customer instead of selling them something..."
Good luck Peter Wong.
Devon
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